NC PPP law?

Hmmm...let's follow some of the convoluted logic here.

You need a BOS so you can prove you sold the gun!

- What are the retention requirements for a BOS? A year? 5? 10? Lifetime?
- How does law enforcement know the BOS was real and not made up? Was it notorized?
- How did you verify the person was who they said they were when you sold it to them? Driver's license? Military ID? Did you make a copy of it?
- How did you know the ID they showed you was real and not a fake/counterfeit? Did you check with DMV to verify their driver's license?
- If the gun was a pistol, did you verify they had a PPP? Did you keep the original? Did you make a copy of the original? How do you know they didn't already use that PPP to purchase another pistol?
- How do you know that individual was legally allowed to possess a firearm? Did you run them through NICS? Did they show you their concealed carry permit? Did you retain a copy of this? How did you know it wasn't a fake or counterfeit?
- You say you sold this gun 10 years ago. How does anybody know whether or not you bought it back later?
- Did you get fingerprints embossed on the BOS?
- Law enforcement can't find the individual purported to be the purchaser on your BOS. Now what? Did you make it up? Why didn't you record other information that would more positively identify the individual?
- Law enforcement tracked down the individual on your BOS. They claim they never made such a purchase and hove no idea who you are. Now what?


WHETHER YOU HAVE A BILL OF SALE OR NOT, IT DOESN'T "PROVE" SQUAT EITHER WAY.

It's not required by law. If you had one, it's not "proof" you sold a firearm. At best, it might be considered another link in an incidental investigation.


The same thing applies for the PPP. I've seen these forms online and trust me...ANYBODY with a computer and a printer can fabricate on from their local sheriff's department and slap a signature on it. It doesn't "prove" squat and all the points I made above can easily apply with this.

- What's the retention requirement for a private sale, even if it were required to be retained?
- How did you know it was real? Did you call the sheriff's department to verify it?
- How did you verify the person was who they said they were?
- Just keep piling up the questions.


If you're worried and think a BOS or PPP will cover your keister, then I've got MORE stuff to worry you: IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF YOU DID HAVE COPIES OF THESE ITEMS IF THEY THOUGHT THEY HAD A CASE TO SAY YOU STILL POSSESSED SAID FIREARM.


There's more to a criminal investigation than just who the last person to have owned said firearm was. Do you match the description of the 350 pound green haired knuckle-dragging gibbon with facial piercings that robbed the banana warehouse at 9:15 am last Wednesday? The firearm showed up at the scene of a crime in Missouri two months ago, were you anywhere near Missouri at that time?
 
Langley said:
Ok I’ve tried searching and can’t seem to find the answer. When someone is purchasing a pistol from a from a private selling. Does the original PPP need to be given to the seller or is it just shown. Looking for the actual law and not what you do 🤷🏽
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I always shown I have never gave them the permit to keep
 
noway2 said:
It’s worse than meringue versus cool whip.
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But do you have to have a meringue transfer permit before you hand someone a slice of pie? And is cool whip a short process meringue or does it have to take at least 26 minutes overall?
 
The ambiguity of the statute is amazing and intentionally vague. Tossing in items that are not definitive creates doubt, which may make it feel too cumbersome for some and artificially creates a deterrent. It also leaves a door open for the state in the event of crime or as a way to potentially indict / hold…. Thus bringing on an expensive (for you) round of legal fisticuffs btwn your lawyer and the DA. I feel it could be easily remedied by changing wording or adding definitive statements. Ex: the verbiage about “obtaining”… this leads one to potentially believe.. 1) the purchaser needs to obtain said permit from sheriff and 2) it also implies that the seller must “obtain”, which promotes thoughts on retention. If it were to say, the seller must “view” the permit, to confirm validity, that would clarify. Also, if “obtained” is true, what is the retention period”, as mention by a previous post. Is there a definitive period or is it based on a personal CYA period? If it were meant to be absolute in definition, it would would more closely resemble the verbiage in place for FFLs.. example below

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Pop N Shots said:
The ambiguity of the statute is amazing and intentionally vague. Tossing in items that are not definitive creates doubt, which may make it feel too cumbersome for some and artificially creates a deterrent. It also leaves a door open for the state in the event of crime or as a way to potentially indict / hold…. Thus bringing on an expensive (for you) round of legal fisticuffs btwn your lawyer and the DA. I feel it could be easily remedied by changing wording or adding definitive statements. Ex: the verbiage about “obtaining”… this leads one to potentially believe.. 1) the purchaser needs to obtain said permit from sheriff and 2) it also implies that the seller must “obtain”, which promotes thoughts on retention. If it were to say, the seller must “view” the permit, to confirm validity, that would clarify. Also, if “obtained” is true, what is the retention period”, as mention by a previous post. Is there a definitive period or is it based on a personal CYA period? If it were meant to be absolute in definition, it would would more closely resemble the verbiage in place for FFLs.. example below

View attachment 559428
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I am pretty sure this pertains to sales by FFLs, not private sellers.

The only place it has ever said that a private seller “should” (not “must”) retain the buyer’s PPP, is in Roy Cooper’s, and subsequent guidance to sheriffs. It was also stated that this was the DOJ's “interpretation”. The reality is, it is simply not stated in any sort of express fashion anywhere in the statutes that I am aware of.

My view as a private seller is the PPP was paid for and procurred by the buyer. It’s his, until it is retained by the selling FFL, along with a 4473. If he elects to use it again, that’s on him, not me. It’s not my responsibility to enforce what I think the law should, or shouldn’t say. And as you pointed out, how long do I have to keep it? 20 years like FFLs? It’s just not a requirement.

Some say the implication is there in the statute. It’s just not, and yes, it is murky and muddy when you have an AG who leans heavily towards gun control.

I also wouldn't suggest that the legislature open up this can of worms up for further clarification. They tried to do that a year or two ago regarding churches who have weekday schools, since it was unclear if it was legal to carry in those churches on Sundays, even if the school wasn’t in session.

New legislation was introduced to clear this up so that churches could arm and defend themselves legally. It was put to a vote, and won with a veto-proof majority. Repubs and Dems. Roy vetoed it, and the veto-proof majority required to overide it evaporated.
 
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All the buyer has to do is display/present the PPP. It is not required to be transferred or kept by the seller.
 
fieldgrade said:
The only place it has ever said that a private seller “should” (not “must”) retain the buyer’s PPP, is in Roy Cooper’s, and subsequent guidance to sheriffs. It was also stated that this was his “interpretation”. The reality is, it is simply not stated in any sort of express fashion anywhere in the statutes that I am aware of.
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This is very true.

Another good example was the Cooper version of firearms law interpretation which stated that it was not legal to own a machine gun in NC (even after NC changed the statute to reflect that it WAS legal, as long as you fulfilled the Federal transfer process).

What in fact happened , is that once the NC statute was amended , ATF started transferring machine guns on Form IV's to NC.

Coopers "opinion" document as AG was not the law.
 
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A requirement to retain the permit requires the seller to maintain paper records of firearm transactions, something otherwise completely avoided in NC law for private sales. I think it's possible that the requirement for the seller to retain the PPP was deliberately left out for consistency with that precedent.
 
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Can somebody please post the applicable state statutes on this?

I'm sure that would clear this up...

😁😁😁
 
JohnFreeman said:
All the buyer has to do is display/present the PPP. It is not required to be transferred or kept by the seller.
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The intent of your comment is correct, but to nit pic, the buyer’s obligation is to obtain a valid PPP or CHP prior to taking possession. If he or she does not display or present it to a private seller, no law has been broken. See https://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_52A.pdf

Further comments here are not directed at you, just riffing on the issue generally.

There is no requirement that a private seller retain anything, this is not ambiguous or confusing, the statute could not be more clear.

There is a very minor risk to the seller, and by very minor I mean that I have found no example of it ever being charged much less convicted, if the seller is not a dealer and the buyer presents a forged PPP or CHP. The facts would be that a criminal buyer is later arrested, the gun collected by law enforcement, the seller identified (this is one situation where a BOS is potentially harmful to the seller), and the state determining that the criminal buyer did not in fact possess a valid PPP or CHP. In that situation the private seller could be asked by law enforcement why they sold a handgun to the criminal buyer. In my case the response would be that I did no such thing, that I always review the buyers drivers license and either the PPP or CHP, and that if they have further questions they’ll need to wait until I have retained counsel. As needed I’ll offer that I have no recollection of owning the specific handgun, much less selling it. Assuming that this is a one-off thing, I expect that it will go no further. I do believe that an out-of-control prosecutor could push the issue and file charges, but as I mentioned above I don’t believe it has ever happened and we’ve long had plenty of anti 2A prosecutors. As @fieldgrade implied above, it is not worth the risk to try to amend the statute, we’d likely get changes that are contrary to our desires.

The next obvious question is does retention of a PPP or copy of a CHP protect the private seller from this remote risk, and unfortunately it does not. To get to this point we must already have a fiercely anti 2A police force and prosecutor. Showing them a piece of paper is irrelevant because they know that they aren’t real. All you’ve accomplished is confirming that you did in fact break the law, you sold a handgun to a prohibited person. Having now provided them with everything to convict you, you hope that the “I tried, the documents were forged, it’s impossible to know” defense will get you off the hook that you so eagerly hung yourself on. Again this risk is remote for anyone that is not routinely engaged in criminal activity.

Hope that someone finds this helpful.
 
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