NC PPP law?

Just rather not give out peoples names that I know personally! Especially to people I don’t know! It’s just respecting someone’s privacy by not giving out that information! Everyone should understand that! But there are some!!
 
vp9c said:
If you get a bill of sale you don’t need to keep it right? Just take pictures of it and post them online?




















😂
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And take pics of the guy's license plate, and follow him home to make sure he lives at the address listed on his NCDL!
 
I don't know why there is such an argument about not keeping records of who you sell your gun to in light of the potential criminal and/or civil liability exposure to the seller if he or she does not have proof that reasonable diligence was made that the gun was not transferred to someone not lawfully allowed to obtain possession of it if the gun later became involved in a homicide or armed robbery and traced back to the seller. You are going to have to trust that a jury believes you when you say "I saw a PPP or CHP."? That is when you wish you had made a copy. I don't think anybody is arguing that you have to keep the PPP or make a copy of the CHP. NC law does not specifically require you to do so. NC law does state that you shall not transfer a handgun to anyone who is underage or otherwise not permitted by law to own or possess one. From this lawyer's point of view, I would rather have proof and not need it than to need proof and not have it that I did not knowingly make such a transfer because the party defrauded me or that at the time of the transfer, the transferee was eligible to receive the gun. A copy of the PPP or CHP should exculpate you from those issues. You may have the absolute right not to keep any paperwork; but, is it the smart thing not to?
 
KB74 said:
Basically guy sold a shotgun to a guy back in the 80’s at a flea market! Which I’m sure most people seen it going on back then. Well a few years later the individual that purchased the shotgun ended up robbing someone a shot and kill them. Since the person I knew didn’t do a bill of sale or have it legally transferred he was charged with the murder even though he didn’t do it! He finally got released somewhere around the early 2,000’s! He had to serve his sentence without getting parole.
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I’m a pretty simple minded fellow and I ain’t the sharpest knife in the drawer…not by a longshot, but I do have a keen ability to detect hogwash….

and my meter is pegged.


If that story happened the way you say it happened, then precedent exists for bartenders to be charged with DUI, DWI and vehicular homicide, even though they weren’t behind the wheel.
 
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Kassar said:
I don't know why there is such an argument
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Over time here, you’ll learn this isn’t really “such an argument”. If you wanna see one, post “Duke’s mayo bites” or “Glocks are crap”. 😂
 
Kassar said:
I don't know why there is such an argument about not keeping records of who you sell your gun to in light of the potential criminal and/or civil liability exposure to the seller if he or she does not have proof that reasonable diligence was made that the gun was not transferred to someone not lawfully allowed to obtain possession of it if the gun later became involved in a homicide or armed robbery and traced back to the seller. You are going to have to trust that a jury believes you when you say "I saw a PPP or CHP."? That is when you wish you had made a copy. I don't think anybody is arguing that you have to keep the PPP or make a copy of the CHP. NC law does not specifically require you to do so. NC law does state that you shall not transfer a handgun to anyone who is underage or otherwise not permitted by law to own or possess one. From this lawyer's point of view, I would rather have proof and not need it than to need proof and not have it that I did not knowingly make such a transfer because the party defrauded me or that at the time of the transfer, the transferee was eligible to receive the gun. A copy of the PPP or CHP should exculpate you from those issues. You may have the absolute right not to keep any paperwork; but, is it the smart thing not to?
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I disagree with you. But you are welcome to sell your own items and place as many extra stipulations on that sale as you see fit.

While I disagree with you, on this issue, please do not think that I or anyone else on this forum dislike you for your opinion.

Welcome to the forum. It's nice to have another lawyer in our midst... We might need your help some day!

Have a good day!
 
KB74 said:
Just rather not give out peoples names that I know personally! Especially to people I don’t know! It’s just respecting someone’s privacy by not giving out that information! Everyone should understand that! But there are some!!
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The problem is that many have claimed such an example, but none have been proven. Over the course of many years we have been unable to find any evidence that keeping a PPP or getting a BOS actually reduced risk for the seller. We have heard stories like “the FBI/ATF came to my friends door, good thing he had a BOS” but that skips the important bit…what if he hadn’t? Most people don’t do these extra-legal things, where are their stories? Under the law, and given the facts that it was a legal transfer for which all legal obligations were met by the seller, exactly nothing different would have happened. Your story may fill in a blank. It’s a sample size of 1 so it’s not going to be conclusive, and while I mean you no disrespect I think it likely that the story has changed with the telling over the years, but I’d still like to run it down. It’s likely going to be public information anyway, but ask your friend if he cares if I look into it. Happy to do it by PM, I don’t feel the need to share any info provided in confidence with the broader group, I’ll just share the conclusion and support without any identifying details. Most here would trust me not to misrepresent the facts.

Kassar said:
in light of the potential criminal and/or civil liability exposure to the seller if he or she does not have proof that reasonable diligence was made that the gun was not transferred to someone not lawfully allowed to obtain possession of it
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In what must be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of private party transactions there has not been shared a single case where the retention of a PPP or a BOS made a difference to the seller. People are focused on some hypothetical risk, in your case fueled by a story from a friend, and try to mitigate that risk…but we know that the risk is insignificant since it’s apparently never been charged much less convicted.

Consider even a charge of murder. Your neighbor is murdered at home one evening, you didn’t do it, but the police charge you and the DA takes it to court. Is it your job to prove that you didn’t murder your neighbor? Of course not, it is the state’s job to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you did. Applying this to a private transfer of a firearm, the state must prove that you did not follow the law. Think about how they would meet their burden and you’ll see that having a BOS or a PPP doesn’t change the calculus in the least.

edit: sorry @Kassar - you aren’t the guy with the story, my bad.
 
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KB74 said:
I couldn’t care less!
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I would simply like to take a moment and say “thank you” for using couldn't instead of could. It doesn’t happen often enough. 🤓
 
I can not name names because I don't know the man personally BUT..my source and his source [2 members here] verified and passed this along.
THIS past week end at a N.C. Gun Show...yes the one right across the Border.....there was a man with Several nice S&W Revolvers and a Colt auto
set up selling. He was checking CCPs and PPPs of all the buyers and making deals and selling handguns. Really nice handguns.

The only fly in the ointment was.......wait for it...........he was NOT from N.C....so apparently there are no checks and balances insofar as making sure the Seller can actually SELL.

See..........I think that's funny as Helllllllllllllllllllllll
 
KB74 said:
Basically guy sold a shotgun to a guy back in the 80’s at a flea market! Which I’m sure most people seen it going on back then. Well a few years later the individual that purchased the shotgun ended up robbing someone a shot and kill them. Since the person I knew didn’t do a bill of sale or have it legally transferred he was charged with the murder even though he didn’t do it! He finally got released somewhere around the early 2,000’s! He had to serve his sentence without getting parole.

I like sleeping in my own bed lol! If you or the buyer or seller don’t want to transfer it the supposedly legal way, what is the reason you can’t? That’s a red flag for me!
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I am going to assume that this wasn't in North Carolina. In NC, you do NOT you need a permit to purchase a long gun (or shotgun), in a private sale, nor do they need to go through an FFL if it is an in state transfer. The seller has an obligation to not knowingly sell to a "prohibited" person, but that that is about it. If they unknowingly sell to a "prohibited" person, it is on the buyer for the offense.

My question is, does anyone know of a statute the states this explicitly? I can't find one and all I am seeing is the part about it being illegal to sell a pistol to someone without a permit and I wonder if it is one of those subjects where it's not expressly legal by statute but because there is no statute to the contrary, much like if you have a gun in your car, go to a restaurant and drink a beer, you can put the gun in the open instead of concealing it; it's not prohibited so it's legal.
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
I can not name names because I don't know the man personally BUT..my source and his source [2 members here] verified and passed this along.
THIS past week end at a N.C. Gun Show...yes the one right across the Border.....there was a man with Several nice S&W Revolvers and a Colt auto
set up selling. He was checking CCPs and PPPs of all the buyers and making deals and selling handguns. Really nice handguns.

The only fly in the ointment was.......wait for it...........he was NOT from N.C....so apparently there are no checks and balances insofar as making sure the Seller can actually SELL.

See..........I think that's funny as Helllllllllllllllllllllll
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You’ve jumped from state law to federal law. Other than maybe getting caught up in a general prohibition in NC law against violating federal law, I’m not sure that this would be a violation of NC law.

But you make a good point - can the SELLER legally sell outside their state of residence, and does the buyer have any legal exposure if he or she unknowingly buys from an out of state unlicensed seller? It’s not unreasonable for a buyer’s first thought in such a transaction to be that they were a party to an illegal transfer under federal law, and that sounds really bad. I think I know the answer, but want to check a few things rather than just popping off…I’ll post an edit.
 
noway2 said:
In NC, you do you need a permit to purchase a long gun (or shotgun), in a private sale, nor do they need to go through an FFL if it is an in state transfer.
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I’m pretty sure I know what you meant to say…but you might want to read that again slowly and then edit it. 😉
 
JimB said:
Other than maybe getting caught up in a general prohibition in NC law against violating federal law, I’m not sure that this would be a violation of NC law.
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This is so cool. Reminds me about 4 years ago a dead body was found in a car at a motel over on the Murder Beach......the City and the County were at a stand off for HOURS trying to each push the case off on the other..........Lazy Bastids:p Not My Job...Wellllll It's NOT MY job!!!
 
Jeppo said:
Over time here, you’ll learn this isn’t really “such an argument”. If you wanna see one, post “Duke’s mayo bites” or “Glocks are crap”. 😂
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Not so much crap. Suck, not worth the hype, sure ain't a 1911 may have been what you were looking to say.
 
JimB I can ask when I go back that way to see my granddaughter for her birthday! Haven’t seen him in about 5 or 6 years. He might be dead I really don’t know. If so I’ll ask his wife if she mine’s. I don’t know every detail about it. Just what he said! So he might not have told everything. Which most people won’t tell you every detail. Could be wrong on the time frame and exact years he pulled but regardless some are to quick judge.

Kinda like the old saying “If you wake in the morning and run into an a-hole then ok, but if you run into them all day!” Everyone knows what I mean and who it’s directed too! And I don’t mean you JimB! There’s always at least a few in every crowd and I guess we found them! But they can talk all they want and not hurt my feelings! I couldn’t care less about them or their opinion’s! Theirs no one on this forum that pays my bill’s or feeds me! So some can trash talk me if you make’s you feel better! I’ve heard it all my life and it doesn’t bother me! Just show’s just how ignorant some people can be!
 
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noway2 said:
Thanks for catching that. Yes, I meant to say NOT required.
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Go read it again. 🤣

(Hint: you didn’t miss a word, you had the wrong word…now you have an extra one in there that makes no sense 😝)
 
KB74 said:
JimB I can ask when I go back that way to see my granddaughter for her birthday! Haven’t seen him in about 5 or 6 years. He might be dead I really don’t know. If so I’ll ask his wife if she mine’s. I don’t know every detail about it. Just what he said! So he might not have told everything. Which most people won’t tell you every detail. Could be wrong on the time frame and exact years he pulled but regardless some are to quick judge.

Kinda like the old saying “If you wake in the morning and run into an a-hole then ok, but if you run into them all day!” Everyone knows what I mean and who it’s directed too! And I don’t mean you JimB! There’s always at least a few in every crowd and I guess we found them! But they can talk all they want and not hurt my feelings! I couldn’t care less about them or their opinion’s! Theirs no one on this forum that pays my bill’s or feeds me! So some can trash talk me if you make’s you feel better! I’ve heard it all my life and it doesn’t bother me! Just show’s just how ignorant some people can be!
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KB74 said:
If you or the buyer or seller don’t want to transfer it the supposedly legal way, what is the reason you can’t?
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I have an issue with people telling stories with no credible follow up / etc other than "that's what he told me" and or "it's a private matter" all while telling us that we're doing something illegal.
 
KB74 said:
JimB I can ask when I go back that way to see my granddaughter for her birthday! Haven’t seen him in about 5 or 6 years. He might be dead I really don’t know. If so I’ll ask his wife if she mine’s. I don’t know every detail about it. Just what he said! So he might not have told everything. Which most people won’t tell you every detail. Could be wrong on the time frame and exact years he pulled but regardless some are to quick judge.

Kinda like the old saying “If you wake in the morning and run into an a-hole then ok, but if you run into them all day!” Everyone knows what I mean and who it’s directed too! And I don’t mean you JimB! There’s always at least a few in every crowd and I guess we found them! But they can talk all they want and not hurt my feelings! I couldn’t care less about them or their opinion’s! Theirs no one on this forum that pays my bill’s or feeds me! So some can trash talk me if you make’s you feel better! I’ve heard it all my life and it doesn’t bother me! Just show’s just how ignorant some people can be!
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It really isn’t that anyone dislikes folks with different opinions here, it’s that this particular chestnut comes up constantly. It’s the forum’s version of the long-disproven “autism is caused by childhood vaccinations.” Someone new joins, in this case you, and proceeds to tell everyone that it’s required to do your business a particular way and even if it’s not then it’s only smart to do it that way. Usually no offense intended, but you can see how it gets a little old. Nevertheless, most of us recognize that folks have notions and they love their notions even when the support for them doesn’t withstand review. We generally end up with someone being unable to distinguish fact (you have btw, recognizing that there is no legal requirement for the seller to retain the PPP or for a BOS) from opinion.

I am tired of these arguments, but I do believe that imposing extra-legal requirements moves the goalposts, making it easier to pass new restrictions because “smart“ people are already doing it.

Anyway, nobody here cares what a seller requires, and we all like strong opinions. We’re pretty wide open so long as the terms of the deal are disclosed in advance.
 
JimB said:
It really isn’t that anyone dislikes folks with different opinions here, it’s that this particular chestnut comes up constantly. It’s the forum’s version of the long-disproven “autism is caused by childhood vaccinations.” Someone new joins, in this case you, and proceeds to tell everyone that it’s required to do your business a particular way and even if it’s not then it’s only smart to do it that way. Usually no offense intended, but you can see how it gets a little old. Nevertheless, most of us recognize that folks have notions and they love their notions even when the support for them doesn’t withstand review. We generally end up with someone being unable to distinguish fact (you have btw, recognizing that there is no legal requirement for the seller to retain the PPP or for a BOS) from opinion.

I am tired of these arguments, but I do believe that imposing extra-legal requirements moves the goalposts, making it easier to pass new restrictions because “smart“ people are already doing it.

Anyway, nobody here cares what a seller requires, and we all like strong opinions. We’re pretty wide open so long as the terms of the deal are disclosed in advance.
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Thanks I appreciate your honesty and opinion. That’s the reason I handle my firearm’s deal’s in the way I do. I won’t sell one to just anybody. I try to take care of myself just in case anything happens! Other’s may do it different than me and that’s their right to do it how they see fit! But regardless I don’t see the call for the criticism some give off! IMHO there’s no reason for it just because you don’t agree!
 
Kassar said:
I don't find any statute requiring that the PPP be turned over to the seller; but, prudence dictates that the seller should at least make a copy of the PPP if the buyer does not want to surrender it. The seller should keep proof that he sold to a person authorized by statute to purchase a gun. Even with a CHP buyer, at least get the info off the CHP. If a buyer will not let me photocopy the PPP or CHP, I can elect not to sell them a gun. It is for my own protection.
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How would it protect you? The buyer is responsible for not using it more than once. The seller would have no way of knowing if it’s been used once before or 10 times before if the buyer only deals with individuals and no one takes it.
 
KB74 said:
But regardless I don’t see the call for the criticism some give off! IMHO there’s no reason for it just because you don’t agree!
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Methinks you might need to toughen up a wee bit, laddie... jus' sayin'!

However, I commend you for standing your ground. Others have Departed with Drama, which is completely unproductive.

So, Welcome to CFF!
 
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MacEntyre said:
What are they going to charge you with, that will go to a jury?
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Well…evidently, if you do not do a BOS and retain a PPP, should someone use the weapon to commit the damn-damn, yer arse can be charged with murder, you can be convicted of murder and you can do time in the hoosegow.
 
KB74 said:
Basically guy sold a shotgun to a guy back in the 80’s at a flea market! Which I’m sure most people seen it going on back then. Well a few years later the individual that purchased the shotgun ended up robbing someone a shot and kill them. Since the person I knew didn’t do a bill of sale or have it legally transferred he was charged with the murder even though he didn’t do it! He finally got released somewhere around the early 2,000’s! He had to serve his sentence without getting parole.
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What happened to the individual(s) who actually committed the crime?
 
MacEntyre said:
However, I commend you for standing your ground. Others have Departed with Drama, which is completely unproductive.
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Everyone is is entitled to their own opinion about thing’s! That includes everybody on here. We all are not going to agree on everything! If I don’t stand my ground, no one is going to do it for me. Not the way I was raised! As far as the toughening up goes, I have thick skin and always have. It’s just word’s until they act on them!

We can all get along with each other even if we don’t agree on everything! If we take it that personal then we need to get off this post. But Thanks MacEntrye some of y’all are OK! Glad to be here!!
 
KB74 said:
But Thanks MacEntrye some of y’all are OK! Glad to be here!!
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And we are glad you are here!

So, now that you have ponied up the tough part of yer dues, will you consider becoming a Supporting Member?
 
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Dale Gribble said:
What happened to the individual(s) who actually committed the crime?
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Gribble to be honest I really don’t know! Never asked him and he never said! Some thing’s he didn’t say anything about. Just a messed up situation he got in. I’m sure he would have never thought it would happen to him. Back then people traded and sold guns all the time! I remember my grandpa doing it all the time, but he would make them sign a BOS with a witness with the time and date the transaction was done. I asked him why he done that and was told, “ you don’t ever know!” Ol’boy just didn’t cover his a^* if something happened and it did and he got charged became a felon. Simple mistake that cost him in the long run!
 
My ex brother in laws third cousin was summarily executed by federal agents for taking and keeping a guys PPP after a legal sale of a broken handgun in clear violation of the law that explicitly does not say you should keep it.





am I playing this game right?
 
I just build my guns...........completely without a bill of sale, but I do have some tracking numbers for everything without a serial number :D

The PPP was designed to keep blacks from getting handguns, period. If only they would make one that keeps CRIMINALS from getting them.
Or Glock Switches. Or P80s made into full auto Glizzy-spitters with Dat Glocccccccc Switch and those 33 round choppa mags.

personally I don't care who buys what when where how or why. And I damn sure ain't keeping a gun registry of PPPs in my safe.
 
DrPhudd said:
My ex brother in laws third cousin was summarily executed by federal agents for taking and keeping a guys PPP after a legal sale of a broken handgun in clear violation of the law that explicitly does not say you should keep it.





am I playing this game right?
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Nope. I recommend always shooting thru the door should someone like a fedboi suddenly appear without a warrant. But, prepare your dog for the aftermath, and possibly some gas masks for women and children alike.
 
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