NC PPP law?

KB74 said:
I look at it like this! Just cover your own a%# and have a someone with a FFL transfer it from you to them! Someone else mentioned in an earlier post about this. If the seller and buyer are to cheap to do it the legal way to cover both of you then keep it! Spend 10 to 15 bucks to keep yourself out of prison, hmmmm sounds like it would be worth it! Otherwise add it to the gun price from the start! Most around my area are about 25 to 35 dollars to do a transfer! That is if you want to be a law abiding citizen! Criminals are not law abiding citizens and that’s why they are called criminals lol! Had an officer tell me a notarized bill of sell is enough to keep you from being responsible for anything done with the firearm from the date and time it was notarized! But to cover yourself still do what you need to do according to the law! Bad when it’s someone else getting you in trouble because of your negligence!
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You may look at it in whatever way you like, but I can’t find anything that is factually accurate in your post except “criminals are not law abiding.”

Kassar said:
I don't find any statute requiring that the PPP be turned over to the seller; but, prudence dictates that the seller should at least make a copy of the PPP if the buyer does not want to surrender it. The seller should keep proof that he sold to a person authorized by statute to purchase a gun. Even with a CHP buyer, at least get the info off the CHP. If a buyer will not let me photocopy the PPP or CHP, I can elect not to sell them a gun. It is for my own protection.
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Hubris, excessive confidence in your own opinion, esp. an unfounded of erroneous opinion. You attach what you think are pretty words to your unfounded opinion and simply reach the wrong conclusion. YOU can make up whatever rules you want when you sell a gun, but please don’t insult the rest of us by telling us that we should also do things that are not required by law and that have adverse consequences.

FWIW, I do appreciate that you recognize that turning over the PPP is not required by law and that you simply want it because you’re afraid. Respect government, but do not fear it, that is the path to subjugation.
 
Lot of hubris in here on both sides… It’s not in the law that you must turn it over. It’s also not in the law you don’t have to turn it over. Meanwhile it’s established that FFLs do have to keep it, and the folks that arrest and charge you stated their opinion that you do need to turn it over. Their lawyers have probably but a bit more work into it and have case law to back up their position than “I read it and doesn’t say I have too”.
 
Mathieu18 said:
Lot of hubris in here on both sides… It’s not in the law that you must turn it over. It’s also not in the law you don’t have to turn it over. Meanwhile it’s established that FFLs do have to keep it, and the folks that arrest and charge you stated their opinion that you do need to turn it over. Their lawyers have probably but a bit more work into it and have case law to back up their position than “I read it and doesn’t say I have too”.
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ignorance.
ignorance.
erroneous.
Unfounded assumption.
In short, ignorance and fear.
 
BigWaylon said:
…because that’s not how laws work.
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Not entirely true when there’s other laws that can close the gaps in gray areas Or where things are not explicitly stated. We assume it has to be in the firearms laws, but it could be another NC general statutes as well that forms their opinion.
 
I’ve been reading these threads in three different iterations of this forum for exactly ten years now.

As far as I can recall, no one who has tried to make a case for doing more than the law requires has ever cited one example of how going above and beyond the statutes has kept their hindquarters out of the wringer.
 
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Mathieu18 said:
Not entirely true when there’s other laws that can close the gaps in gray areas Or where things are not explicitly stated. We assume it has to be in the firearms laws, but it could be another NC general statutes as well that forms their opinion.
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Fer cryin’ out loud. You should stay home today. You’ll be safer.
 
fieldgrade said:
I’ve been reading these threads in three different iterations of this forum for exactly ten years now.

As far as I can recall, no one who has tried to make a case for doing more than the law requires has ever cited one example of how going above and beyond the statutes has kept their hindquarters out of the wringer.
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^This.

And remember that even the anti-gunners want this private sale "loophole" so they have something to erroneously bitch about to people who don't know any better.
 
fieldgrade said:
Fer cryin’ out loud. You should stay home today. You’ll be safer.
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No idea why I decided to wander into this discussion this morning… On the plus I don’t have any pistols I’m trying to sell.

My only point is that everyone is reading a single piece of the general statute and deciding that they do not have to do something based upon that. i’m not saying that you will find the text explicitly stated that they do have to keep it, I’m just saying there’s lots of other pieces of law that could be grounds for the opinion. Name calling etc isn’t exactly helpful or productive. Explain to me why firearms statutes are the only part of NC law that could come into play at your trial.

But the only thing I’m 100% certain on is that I’m not going to sway any opinions here, so please carry on…
 
Mathieu18 said:
Always attack, never defend right?
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you’re just new, and apparently can’t be bothered to read. We are surrounded by stupid people, but it’s the willfully ignorant that are infuriating. You don’t want to understand how government and law works, you don’t want to understand the difference between fact and opinion, and yet you feel that you must spread your incorrect opinion to the world. You can live in ignorance and fear, that is your right, but why the mission to spread misinformation and bad advice?
 
fieldgrade said:
For any other new folks following this thread looking for wise counsel on what the NC statutes require, and what they do not...

This is not the way. No offense to you KB, but this post is long on opinion and conjecture, and very short on actual NC firearms statutes and what they require.
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No offense taken! I’m not looking for counsel on anything. I’m gonna look out for myself and cover my a*^ so that if by chance they do something they shouldn’t or if it gets stolen and used to kill someone it’s not on me! Knew someone that happened to and spent about 15 years in prison because of it! I’m not going to jail for nothing I didn’t do myself. Sure I’m not the only one! My son would be the only one in this world I wouldn’t worry about getting a firearm transfer done! To many stupid people in the world these days! Not worth the risk!
 
Jeppo said:
Would you share the backstory?
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Basically guy sold a shotgun to a guy back in the 80’s at a flea market! Which I’m sure most people seen it going on back then. Well a few years later the individual that purchased the shotgun ended up robbing someone a shot and kill them. Since the person I knew didn’t do a bill of sale or have it legally transferred he was charged with the murder even though he didn’t do it! He finally got released somewhere around the early 2,000’s! He had to serve his sentence without getting parole.

I like sleeping in my own bed lol! If you or the buyer or seller don’t want to transfer it the supposedly legal way, what is the reason you can’t? That’s a red flag for me!
 
KB74 said:
Basically guy sold a shotgun to a guy back in the 80’s at a flea market! Which I’m sure most people seen it going on back then. Well a few years later the individual that purchased the shotgun ended up robbing someone a shot and kill them. Since the person I knew didn’t do a bill of sale or have it legally transferred he was charged with the murder even though he didn’t do it! He finally got released somewhere around the early 2,000’s! He had to serve his sentence without getting parole.

I like sleeping in my own bed lol! If you or the buyer or seller don’t want to transfer it the supposedly legal way, what is the reason you can’t? That’s a red flag for me!
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I believe that you believe this, so I’d like to better understand it. Can you share additional information so I can find the court case?
 
KB74 said:
Basically guy sold a shotgun to a guy back in the 80’s at a flea market! Which I’m sure most people seen it going on back then. Well a few years later the individual that purchased the shotgun ended up robbing someone a shot and kill them. Since the person I knew didn’t do a bill of sale or have it legally transferred he was charged with the murder even though he didn’t do it! He finally got released somewhere around the early 2,000’s! He had to serve his sentence without getting parole.

I like sleeping in my own bed lol! If you or the buyer or seller don’t want to transfer it the supposedly legal way, what is the reason you can’t? That’s a red flag for me!
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Names and dates? It should be public record so you’re not doxxing anyone

Would be great to verify for these threads
 
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KB74 said:
Not bringing any names on here! Just sharing what I know from the person personally. Knew him since I was a kid and so did my family.
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There's either more to the story on this or complete made up BS.
 
Mathieu18 said:
I’m just saying there’s lots of other pieces of law that could be grounds for the opinion. Name calling etc isn’t exactly helpful or productive. Explain to me why firearms statutes are the only part of NC law that could come into play at your trial.
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That's a fair point. Could you cite some of those statutes or cases? I'd like to consider them.
 
No offense to anyone but this post has become like Washington politics! Everyone thinks they are right. So many thing’s get misinterpreted by what they believe! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Seems like some people wanna take it personal on here! I couldn’t care less!
 
Just think how uninformed and confused the general public is about gun laws. It is no wonder that the antigun media are able to tell bold lies without most people realizing that they are being led astray. Not even the people charged with enforcing the laws are sure what the laws are that they are charged with enforcing.
 
Mathieu18 said:
But the only thing I’m 100% certain on is that I’m not going to sway any opinions here, so please carry on…
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You could easily sway opinions if you could cite cases that demonstrate your point. I suppose that means you are correct...

KB74 said:
Seems like some people wanna take it personal on here! I couldn’t care less!
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It remains a fact that one side of the discussion couldn't care less about demonstrating what they claim. So far, there has been Nothing put forward other than Heresay, Hypothesis, Conjecture and Assumption.

What we don't appreciate is folks who give advice to others based on Heresay, Hypothesis, Conjecture and Assumption.

I remain confident that I am well within the law by keeping no records of private sales.
 
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KB74 said:
Basically guy sold a shotgun to a guy back in the 80’s at a flea market! Which I’m sure most people seen it going on back then. Well a few years later the individual that purchased the shotgun ended up robbing someone a shot and kill them. Since the person I knew didn’t do a bill of sale or have it legally transferred he was charged with the murder even though he didn’t do it! He finally got released somewhere around the early 2,000’s! He had to serve his sentence without getting parole.
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Without considering whether this happened in NC, I bet you a brand new penny that he was found guilty of the illegal transfer. A BOS would not have made it legal, if the buyer was not qualified to purchase the shotgun at the time of the sale. Sure wish you could bring this story out of the closet... otherwise it is nothing but Heresay.
 
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KB74 said:
No offense to anyone but this post has become like Washington politics! Everyone thinks they are right. So many thing’s get misinterpreted by what they believe! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Seems like some people wanna take it personal on here! I couldn’t care less!
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Guilty! I think I am right. But it's not personal, and I am 100% willing to modify my opinion if I'm presented with new information. It's gotta be something more solid though than what I'm seeing upthread.
 
This whole thread is conjecture. Can anyone cite ANY case involving PPPs and private sales? Show me a case where it was tested and the seller was found innocent because it was a private sale? Show me a case where they were found guilty because they didn't keep a BOS & copy of PPP. At least apply equal logic to your side of the argument. Laws are full of grey areas that are interpreted by courts, juries, attorneys, judges, whomever. I agree it's not explicitly stated in the Gen Statutes that a private seller has to keep a PPP. If that's enough for anyone that's totally fine. But you have to agree a lib AG gave an opinion that it is required and we still have a lib AG in office. That means the potential exists to be charged with something even if you read the statute to mean you are innocent. Kinda funny how we pick and choose when the judicial system is corrupt or efficient.
 
Mathieu18 said:
This whole thread is conjecture.
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It is not conjecture that the law requires no record keeping of the seller.

No one is saying that you are incorrect by making your personal policy based on an AGs' opinions. But no AG or DA has ever convicted anyone of failing to follow their advice. To my knowledge, no AG or DA has ever charged anyone with failing to follow their advice. That's why we object to folks advising others to treat the AGs opinion as law, or as a requirement. It's just Conjecture and Assumption.
 
Mathieu18 said:
That means the potential exists to be charged with something even if you read the statute to mean you are innocent.
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That potential exists, yes. However, the AG doesn't say documentation is a legal requirement nor does he threaten prosecution in anything I can find. Here's what Cooper says in his 2016 guidelines from the Sheriff's Assoc. webpage:

If the purchaser or receiver uses a North Carolina-issued concealed carry permit for the transfer, the seller should reference such permit on a bill of sale
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I take that as advice from a high ranking lawyer who isn't MY lawyer. It serves a purpose for someone... but it might not be me.
 
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It’s funny how some people can get their panties in a wad over a simple discussion! And wonder why the world is in the shape it’s in!
Y’all have fun!
 
Mathieu18 said:
Can anyone cite ANY case involving PPPs and private sales? Show me a case where it was tested and the seller was found innocent because it was a private sale?
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If people are not doing things illegally, there will be no case law. Your argument is that you want to moderate risk, so please demonstrate that the risk is more than a boogeyman under your bed. Show us where the law has been misused, where someone was charged and either convicted or not. Hint, I doubt that you find anything because the law is abundantly clear.

Obviously you don’t need to prove anything to me, I just want folks generally to stop spreading misinformation based on their irrational fears.

I really would like to look up the case that the latest new guy brought up. It would either change my mind, or it would inform hom about how the story he knows isn’t the real story.
 
JimB said:
I really would like to look up the case that the latest new guy brought up. It would either change my mind, or it would inform him about how the story he knows isn’t the real story.
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Not gonna happen... he left with his panties in a wad because he's been called out for telling stories.
 
MacEntyre said:
Not gonna happen... he left with his panties in a wad because he's been called out for telling stories.
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I don’t doubt his sincerity. I am 99.99999% certain that his conclusion is based on a misunderstanding of the facts in the case, and I’m 99.99% sure that the lack of a bill of sale had no effect on the outcome or the sentencing. But I’m interested enough to go look it up.
 
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