Be that as it may, that does not invoke a “Constitutionally sanctioned insurrection” (if such a thing even exists). The founding fathers, in their infinite wisdom were very clear in saying “the People” as in the People as a whole, the American People, not “an American” or “American people”. Again, the American People did not agree that day that the government needed to be overthrown. Several hundred people did, but that is hardly representative of “the People”. Like I said though, had millions of people around the country taken similar action towards insurrection then I truly believe there’s a much better case for that action being Constitutional, but that didn’t happen.
No Justice for Ashli Babbitt
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Dale Gribble
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If the thousands (not hundreds) of folks protesting that day were attempting to overthrow the government and/or bring harm to any elected official, they would have been carrying more than signs and flags.
It was NOT an insurrection....more like a “shot across the bow”.
It was the actions of folks who have been ignored time after time after time. You think the only folks who believe what happened was a righteous decision were the ones participating?
I guarandamntee you there were millions of Americans, watching those events, who agreed 100% with the actions of the protestors.
You do realize that almost a two and a half centuries ago, the number of colonists loyal to the crown vastly outnumbered those who wanted independence from England, don’t you?
It was NOT an insurrection....more like a “shot across the bow”.
It was the actions of folks who have been ignored time after time after time. You think the only folks who believe what happened was a righteous decision were the ones participating?
I guarandamntee you there were millions of Americans, watching those events, who agreed 100% with the actions of the protestors.
You do realize that almost a two and a half centuries ago, the number of colonists loyal to the crown vastly outnumbered those who wanted independence from England, don’t you?
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Okay so if not an insurrection then I’m not sure why you quoted an excerpt of the Constitution that specifically references an insurrection as justification for what happened. You gotta pick one. Is it an insurrection that the Constitution would protect or is it not an insurrection. In that case we’re back to square one which is that what happened wasn’t protected free speech, unless free speech protections suddenly expanded to protect beating officers with fire extinguishers, crow control shields, flag poles, etc. Or the destruction of public property. So prosecute away!
I’m sure you’re right. But nodding approval over the TV is not the same as actions on the ground, and those actions did not materialize after Jan. 6th so clearly there was not a critical mass of people that felt strongly enough that the Capitol riots should continue.
Do YOU realize that the United States is in fact older than ~150 years?
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@Ikarus1 for prez!
fieldgrade
waiting...
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There was a time when this place was occupied by generally like minded folks. Seems like we’ve got some paying interlopers on board.
Combat Diver
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Here we have a sworn officer without warning shoot and kill a unarmed woman. Free pass giving. This week we have a felon wanted on a warrant, resist arrest and accidentally shot and killed. This female officer is being named and charged with second degree manslaughter. Race and gender reversed and double standards.
CD
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I watched the video and came to the conclusion that there is nothing the capitol murderer would not do for his masters. Also anyone that condones that action would do the same. Remember the ruling class lives by different laws than the unwashed masses. Just take a look at the lawmen on trial for shooting known thugs and this capitol police mobster has his goooooood name protected. I had a DOD contract once and working with my masters told me where commoners stood. Most people will never see the truth through all the meat in their face from their masters ass. THANK GOD MY DISTANT GRANDPARENTS LOOKED AT THINGS DIFFERENT.
If you are just another ANTIFA SJW, I suppose you need to speak enough b.s. to promote your idiocy.
Burt Gummer
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They never last long
I don't think interacting with people who disagree with you is a bad thing.
Consider for a moment that we are not as well informed as we assume. From those interactions we may learn or see a different perspective.
Or we may find the opportunity to strengthen our stance on topics.
Either way we grow.
Im sure we’re like-minded enough in the primary way that matters on this forum, respect for the 2A and the gun community.
Being exposed to new perspectives is a normal thing and is how we grow as people and develop our own opinions further. The more people gatekeep firearm forums, the weaker they make the gun community as a whole.
Dale Gribble
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Typo...and corrrected.
You do realize the excerpt I posted in #39 is from the DOI, not the Constitution, right?
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Fellas and ladies,
Can we take it down a notch. Today is a new day, we all woke up in the greatest free nation on the earth, we're not on the verge of being invaded by Russia again (looking at you Ukraine, get some real border defense since you didn't learn last time). No one was raided and had their dogs shot and guns confiscated.
This was yesterday's spicy thread, no sense in making it today's spicy thread.
Can we take it down a notch. Today is a new day, we all woke up in the greatest free nation on the earth, we're not on the verge of being invaded by Russia again (looking at you Ukraine, get some real border defense since you didn't learn last time). No one was raided and had their dogs shot and guns confiscated.
This was yesterday's spicy thread, no sense in making it today's spicy thread.
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So, for the last few decades the right has been accused of hoarding weapons and ammo to fight the government. We've collected billions of rounds of ammunition. Millions of firearms. We spent all this time preparing for the big shindig (according to them)...and they honestly believe that the first "insurrection" is a bunch of people taking selfies and sitting in peoples chairs?
Just so we’re all on the same page, there’s zero requirement to provide anyone with a warning before the use of deadly force either on duty or as a civilian. Zero.
The only requirements for deadly force are perceived ability to cause grave injury, perceived opportunity to cause grave injury, and perceived jeopardy to oneself or a protected third party. The perceptions must be objectively reasonable under the circumstances (e.g. observed as a victim or witness during the commission of a violent or reckless felony). There is no requirement that the “shootee” be armed to justify a shooting. A weapon only changes the scope and distance of “ability” and “opportunity.”
Reasonable people can and do disagree how that standard should apply to a protective detail in a federal building when a mass of unscreened and angry people are forcing a retreat through secured areas. That is really hard for people to divorce from their concerns about the election integrity issues, since it affects their perception of Babbitt’s intent in being part of that crowd. The relevant viewpoint for justification, though, is the officer’s perception of imminent harm to self or others.
Edited to add: I’m not trying to pass judgment on the officer or Ms. Babbitt. I wasn’t there, and I’ve only seen low-quality cell phone footage of chaos that didn’t show nearly enough information to make that call. I think we all agree that no one should have lost their lives there—not a cop on duty, and not a person that thought had been told for months that they were being called on to protect democracy.
That’s all apples and oranges to the Minneapolis shooting. There’s absolutely no comparison to make.
You cannot shoot a fleeing felon in public that isn’t meeting the ability, opportunity, and jeopardy standards. Scuffling and trying to run is resisting and escaping. That’s not a deadly force situation. It could become a deadly force situation if the suspect begins driving recklessly, targeting officers, etc. But, you cannot kill someone before that bar is met (on purpose or on accident). That was the whole point of Tennessee v. Garner.
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Except that angry mob did NOT break through security. Capitol police moved the fencing and allowed people to enter the area. Then the Pd opened the doors and let people enter. Heck there is even a video of a large black PD member showing people where to go in the building. Those people may have been foolish and misguided, but they were not violent or armed. And if we are allowed to execute people for stupidity then we are all going to need more ammo.
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The media narrative is pretty powerful. Even supposedly bright people believe things that never happened. Even with easily accessed video’s out there. IMO there is also a lot willful ignorance. Such are the times.
OP
"The relevant viewpoint for justification, though, is the officer’s perception of imminent harm to self or others."
Every legal positivist has claimed "I was just following orders" throughout history.
Every legal positivist has claimed "I was just following orders" throughout history.
AJoldfart
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I'm not sure I understand your point. Self- or third-party-defense is analyzed by the viewpoint of the shooter in the moment. That protects people from government prosecution for circumstances in which facts later prove there was a misunderstanding (think of the YouTube "prank mugger" in Tennessee killed recently). That's not positivism. That's a naturalist view of self-defense that applies to everyone in uniform or in civilian clothes.
Are you saying that a superior officer commanded the officer to open fire? And the officer fired without any knowledge or consideration of the circumstances?
I don’t care what his “reasons” were. That gal wasn’t armed, wasn’t even close to the shooter. He could have retreated, but did not. His history and published desire to kill a Trumper? Crickets. If a white male Republican had shot her, he would already be charged. If that gal scared him, he is in the wrong job. I hope to read that some serious misfortune befalls the idiot. His name has been published, not that the liberal media had a hand in it. Hope he likes walking around with a nice 🎯 on his back. Apologists for the fool, keep drinking that KoolAid.
IrishCannon
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Not so sure about that one anymore.
Ehh, I've been to several countries south, east, and north of here. Despite all the hardships this country faces, it's hands down the best country.
And if you don't agree with me then you can leave!
I'm kidding about that last part. But I'm dead serious about this country.
Edit: added Canada.
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Thank you. Thank you very much !!!
If she was mine, I’d be dead now too.
Me too. I'll sit in the back of my truck with a cooler full of beer and watch the circus.
The more I read this thread the more I understand that the backbone of the once greatest country in the world has a bad case of scoliosis.
ps ... one good thing, it has allowed my ignore list to grow. Life is too short to read a bunch of stupid stuff. 😜
Except for you, you can get out.
Still kidding.
Seriously though, we can own guns here. European countries don't sell trucks.
We don't have bands of mauraders murdering entire villages in a single night.
Less developed countries look at the US's policy for them to model theirs after.
I hate taxes, but have you ever driven down a back road in central or south america?
Don't even get me started about how dumpy middle eastern countries are.
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But we don’t go to see politicians and voice our concerns on military bases either
Haven’t been to a large Democrat run city lately have you. 😁
Aren't all large cities infested with demmies?
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Good point. I'm struggling to come up with one.
I go to Dallas twice a year and that might have been the last one. Definitely more left leaning than it used to be.
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Well, I thought fort worth was the man's city and dallas was the metrosexual's city.
Not a dig on you, but that's what I genuinely heard it referred to as. Also visited both cities back in 2010 and it seemed appropriate.
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