ATF and SB pistol braces

Have you done anything about this besides complain?

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 86.4%

  • No, I’m just here to rant

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • Total voters
    22
It's funny to me, all this hand wringing over the legal interpretation of the "brace", when it's not about the brace at all. It's about barrel length.
The brace is just a way to have a shorter barrel. There's nothing magical about a "brace" improving a gun's performance other than the actual "brace" function. A short barrel actually degrades performance by reducing velocity and increasing muzzle blast. But, a short barrel is handy and functional, improving performance in other ways. So, I see so much energy focused on legal minutia when the Real issue us the ATF itself. Why are they "enforcing" arbitrary rules that say a barrel is "ok" at one length, but becomes some sort of destructive weapon when it's a quarter of an shorter?

Just sayin'...
 
JRV said:
That’s like saying the NCSHP “lost” the 0.08 BAC limit on an unsuccessful DWI prosecution where the person blew a 0.06.
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Maybe that imaginary NCSHP officer, who is supposed to be the expert of what is and is not a dui, should not have arrested a person who only blew a .06, taken them to jail, made them stand trial, dragged their name through the mud, possibly ruined personal relationships, possibly gotten them fired from their job, and testified against them for blowing a .06...

I don't know anything about the Ohio case, except for what that youtube guy said, and what you've written here. But, that's basically what atf did to that dude, right?
 
georgel said:
It's funny to me, all this hand wringing over the legal interpretation of the "brace", when it's not about the brace at all. It's about barrel length.
The brace is just a way to have a shorter barrel. There's nothing magical about a "brace" improving a gun's performance other than the actual "brace" function. A short barrel actually degrades performance by reducing velocity and increasing muzzle blast. But, a short barrel is handy and functional, improving performance in other ways. So, I see so much energy focused on legal minutia when the Real issue us the ATF itself. Why are they "enforcing" arbitrary rules that say a barrel is "ok" at one length, but becomes some sort of destructive weapon when it's a quarter of an shorter?

Just sayin'...
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Exactly. The real problem is the atf...
 
The NFA was passed because some politicians seized on the public fear of gangsters and bank robbers of the 1920's and early 1930's. There was public fear and concern by police who felt outgunned. The whole barrel-length thing was to make a rifle less easy to hide under a trenchcoat. The issue with machine guns was.... well, machine guns are good for mowing down large groups of citizens and police. The Attorney General Homer Stille Cummings (no, I didn't make that name up) knew that it might be unconstitutional to outlaw the guns, so he proposed a $200 tax on them in 1934. That was big money in those days when a new car cost under $800.

There was another attempt to reduce the firepower of easily concealed weapons with the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act of 1985. That is the one that made armor piercing ammunition for pistols illegal. By this time, a number of Law Enforcement agencies wore soft body armor, but they were again feeling outgunned. This might have have pretty much prevented the popularity of the AR-based pistol, except that surplus military ammo was exempted from the regulation.
 
Alabamacoastie said:
Maybe that imaginary NCSHP officer, who is supposed to be the expert of what is and is not a dui, should not have arrested a person who only blew a .06, taken them to jail, made them stand trial, dragged their name through the mud, possibly ruined personal relationships, possibly gotten them fired from their job, and testified against them for blowing a .06...

I don't know anything about the Ohio case, except for what that youtube guy said, and what you've written here. But, that's basically what atf did to that dude, right?
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Yup! It’s even dumber than the DWI example, because technically you can still be deemed “operating a vehicle while appreciably impaired” despite being below 0.08 BAC (e.g. pills, lack of sleep, being a total lightweight).

The ATF/LE in that case decided the gun looked scary, measured it wrong, and then tried to prosecute the guy for an SBR charge because of their own error. Then, an AUSA (probably a team of them) looked at everything LE did and still tried to prosecute the case.

It would be a comedy of errors if it wasn’t so sad. They screwed up and decided to double down.
 
JRV said:
Yup! It’s even dumber than the DWI example, because technically you can still be deemed “operating a vehicle while appreciably impaired” despite being below 0.08 BAC (e.g. pills, lack of sleep, being a total lightweight).

The ATF/LE in that case decided the gun looked scary, measured it wrong, and then tried to prosecute the guy for an SBR charge because of their own error. Then, an AUSA (probably a team of them) looked at everything LE did and still tried to prosecute the case.

It would be a comedy of errors if it wasn’t so sad. They screwed up and decided to double down.
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And isn't that what the government ALWAYS does... They double down...

Man, it's ridiculous...
 
Repeating earlier questions that piqued my curiosity:

Would a braced pistol be registered as an SBR under the NFA?

If a braced pistol was a registered SBR, could you replace the brace with a stock?
 
SPST said:
The next step is going to be when Harris/Biden get the law passed to hold gun manufacturers responsible for the harm caused by their products and allow people to sue them.
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I don't think this will stand and end up at SCOTUS where it will be stopped. If it was allowed to stand then Ford and AmBev can be liable for a DUI DWI driver killing people.
 
gc70 said:
Repeating earlier questions that piqued my curiosity:

Would a braced pistol be registered as an SBR under the NFA?

If a braced pistol was a registered SBR, could you replace the brace with a stock?
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Reading the proposal, yes. The “brace” would be deemed a stock anyways, so once you had your stamp, you could just throw any old stock on there.
 
JRV said:
Reading the proposal, yes. The “brace” would be deemed a stock anyways, so once you had your stamp, you could just throw any old stock on there.
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That is also how I read it. Although many people do not want to deal with the NFA, the Federal Register article includes a proposal to register an existing "pistol" as an SBR without paying the $200 fee. I have no idea how likely it is that this proposal will be accepted.
 
They will be coming after vertical fore grips and magazines next. Then everything semi auto that is not for sporting purposes (they will define that).

Free tax stamp is a quick registration since a ton will abide. If you already have stamps or were planning on doing an sbr take advantage of it! In the long run they know the 1st doors to knock on (or in).
 
The question is, how many doors will get kicked in before the doors get hardened. Arguably, the doors that harbor NFA items might not be the doors you want to kick. Not just because of the immediate resistance, but because of the community they belong to.
 
slowbias said:
what a scam, building a de facto registry this way is peak american grifting
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I have a C&RFFL and an A&D logbook for that, I have CWPs in multiple states, I have owned and sold NFA items and plan to do some more Form 1s in 2021, every gun I have that didn’t get bought under my C&R FFL has a 4473 and an A&D log entry sitting in some FFL’s storage box, my credit card companies/banks know what I am buying and where it’s going, every online vendor that’s processed a payment from me or shipped to me has a record of what I bought and where it ended up...

Modern living is a de facto registry. 1934 and 1968 were not great years.
 
JRV said:
I have a C&RFFL and an A&D logbook for that, I have CWPs in multiple states, I have owned and sold NFA items and plan to do some more Form 1s in 2021, every gun I have that didn’t get bought under my C&R FFL has a 4473 and an A&D log entry sitting in some FFL’s storage box, my credit card companies/banks know what I am buying and where it’s going, every online vendor that’s processed a payment from me or shipped to me has a record of what I bought and where it ended up...

Modern living is a de facto registry. 1934 and 1968 were not great years.
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You chose to go down that path. Some of us went down a different one...
 
Dan Crenshaw weighs in

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Maybe I missed it but I don't know that if anyone mentioned the time factor involved in getting a stamp. It is my understanding that it takes quite awhile. An article I read mentioned the time involved currently. Now imagine about a gazillion people suddenly flooding them with submissions for the freebie. The writer mentioned that just a small number of BATFE employees are tasked with handling NFA business. My guess is that they won't be doing a big hiring in order to handle all the paperwork. You could conceivably be waiting...well, who knows how long? I don't recall reading or hearing anything about not being a felon until your stamp comes in as long as you sent the paperwork in. This scenario would also give the new douchebags in charge time to work on straight up outlawing them or all of it anyway. Then as many have mentioned...a not so friendly knock on your door. You'll be the low hanging fruit. It will take a few minutes to get to the rest of us, as that will take some effort.

I kicked around doing an AR9 pistol build. Glad I decided to do an AR15 carbine instead and bought a PCC.
 
Alabamacoastie said:
Ughhhh... I didn't even think about the folks who would lose money on their gun values if the NFA was repealed...

I feel sorry for them. But rallying to keep the NFA intact just to prop up the perceived value of their own property is "gate keeping" at its worst...
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I don't feel sorry for them at all. F**k 'em. I'd consider my money lost on my sbr tax stamps to be "good time rental fee" and a downpayment on more guns for free people.

slowbias said:
can't believe i find myself in agreeance with dan crenshaw
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I don't know of many things he's said that are all that bad. The red flag thing was a huge foot in mouth moment, but since then he's clarified that once he learned the details about them he was against them. And it's been a while, so... he might be okay.

JRV said:
Modern living is a de facto registry. 1934 and 1968 were not great years.
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I'm on the registry for NFA items, but I have also traded/bartered for guns, bought/sold guns for cash, freely given guns without paperwork, etc. none of it has anything to do with the government and shouldn't have anything to do with the government.
 
JBoyette said:
all you guys talking, this is your chance to post and impact the law. ... Its time to act. NOW
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No offense, and I do encourage people to go on record...
but this is just false.
They will do what they want to do, and what the rest of the government lets them do.
We "won" the fight on m855 ammo because there just wasn't enough appetite in the govt for that.
we lost the fight on bumpstocks because there was. And if read their breakdown/explanation on stock comments, it went something like "most people said we shouldn't do it because freedom, but we reject this because we can" "other people said we shouldn't do it because the law, but we are the law"
 
My take from all this is you (might) have to do one of 3 things:

Register
Dump unapproved braces, keep pistol
Convert to rifle

Right, wrong??

Heck, not sure if once registered you can convert to SBR without another stamp. They might designate a separate category for braced pistols.
 
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As I see it.
23 states have added laws as to what a pistol is based on barrel length.

The fed also follows this same process on rifles and shotguns.

The issue with the angle the ATF is taking is:
1. Attacking handicap Americans
2. Assuming that accessories change function
3. The latest view of "pistol" and "brace" don't impact 20 years of ruling on Thompson Pistols.

John
 
DrScaryGuy said:
No offense, and I do encourage people to go on record...
but this is just false.
They will do what they want to do, and what the rest of the government lets them do.
We "won" the fight on m855 ammo because there just wasn't enough appetite in the govt for that.
we lost the fight on bumpstocks because there was. And if read their breakdown/explanation on stock comments, it went something like "most people said we shouldn't do it because freedom, but we reject this because we can" "other people said we shouldn't do it because the law, but we are the law"
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Yeah,
It's easy to do nothing, not follow the rules.

Part one of standing your ground is within the construct

What made the NRA a power house was within the 5 million members, 10,000 would not follow your advice and will respond to the public review.

It takes ALL of us to tell the politicians we will not STAND FOR THIS, we have to hit our congressmen and senators NOW. Because they are the ones of direct the ATF. When the public response hits above 20,000 on the Federal Record, that means VOTERS. When all the congressmen and senators are overwhelmed with responses that means this topic is important!

If you got time to talk trash on CFF, you got time to face the ATF. But that takes real digital balls and a bit of giving a damn and not trying to find the battery charging station for seagulls.
 
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@Whoknows please edit your 1st post to include a poll asking who has sent a letter to .guv, and possibly add these links below for folks to more easily find them than digging through 7 pages.

@BigWaylon's link https://oneclickpolitics.global.ssl.fastly.net/messages/edit?promo_id=10271

@rbell2915's letter
rbell2915 said:
Dear [Insert Recipient Name Here],

Earlier this week, the ATF issued a document stating its intentions to designate braced pistols as National Firearms Act (NFA) items. This sweeping change would require any owner of a braced pistol to register their firearm with the ATF or face legal consequences. The ATF, in an attempt to “sweeten the deal,” has proposed to exempt existing braced pistols from the $200 tax stamp requirement, but still mandate registration. Presumably, future braced pistol purchases would not be exempt and new owners would have to pay the $200 fee.

This new directive is a solution in search of a problem. There is no data to suggest braced pistols are being used to commit crimes at a higher degree than other weapons. The NFA itself is a holdover from the days of Al Capone and Prohibition, an attempt to curb the rampant violence of that era. However, violent crime has been decreasing nationwide for years. In other words, this new law will not make our already-safe communities more secure.

It will, however, make legal gun ownership more difficult and financially onerous for many people. Considering the current economic climate and the devastation COVID-19 has inflicted on many American families, there is no reason why the ATF should institute what amounts to a “backdoor tax” on braced pistols.

Frankly, I don’t want to write this letter. I’d rather spend my time enjoying Christmas with my family, as I assume you also want to do. The ATF, however, seems determined to present law-abiding gun owners with a choice this holiday season: register your firearms or become a criminal.

As a voter and resident of [Insert County/State Here], I implore you to do everything in your power to resist this unconstitutional overreach of federal power. Thank you for leading our state through this crisis, and I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.

Regards,

[Insert Name Here]

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
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Link @JBoyette posted https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...r-classifying-weapons-with-stabilizing-braces
Goofyfoot2001 said:
If I can register all of my lowers as SBRs for free, then I can put an actual stock on it right? Isn't this better? I can get a nice collapsable stock right? How do you sell an NFA item? How hard is jt?
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Possibly for you. I have multiple NFA items, I DO NOT want the AR pistol to become one because:
1)- In NC an AR pistol can be carried and kept in a vehicle concealed (unless King Pooper changed that). I got one specifically for that purpose after the TX church shooting. As someone that helps with church safety, an 8" pistol with a folder fits in a laptop bag. Folks aren't afraid of a laptop bag. God forbid if an evil shooter opens up, in a crowd I'd much rather have the accuracy and knock down power of a 300ABLK with a red dot over a G43. The thought of missing the BG and hitting an innocent horrified me.
2)- One's restricted where an NFA can be transported/taken vs. the AR pistol.
 
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Pink_Vapor said:
@Whoknows please edit your 1st post to include a poll asking who has sent a letter to .guv, and possibly add these links below for folks to more easily find them than digging through 7 pages.

@BigWaylon's link https://oneclickpolitics.global.ssl.fastly.net/messages/edit?promo_id=10271

@rbell2915's letter



Link @JBoyette posted https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...r-classifying-weapons-with-stabilizing-braces

Possibly for you. I have multiple NFA items, I DO NOT want the AR pistol to become one because:
1)- In NC an AR pistol can be carried and kept in a vehicle concealed (unless King Pooper changed that). I got one specifically for that purpose after the TX church shooting. As someone that helps with church safety, an 8" pistol with a folder fits in a laptop bag. Folks aren't afraid of a laptop bag. God forbid if an evil shooter opens up, in a crowd I'd much rather have the accuracy and knock down power of a 300ABLK with a red dot over a G43. The thought of missing the BG and hitting an innocent horrified me.
2)- One's restricted where an NFA can be transported/taken vs. the AR pistol.
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That's the key, a pistol is a pistol. NC CCH rules apply. So you are 100% within the law and your CCH permit to carry the 300blkout in a bag in church, if you think its needed.

That my friends is what freedom is all about. Do as you see fit among the public causing no harm.
 
Consequently, following issuance of this notice, ATF and DOJ plan to implement a separate process by which current possessors of affected stabilizer-equipped firearms may choose to register such firearms to be compliant with the NFA. As part of that process, ATF plans to expedite processing of these applications, and ATF has been informed that the Attorney General plans retroactively to exempt such firearms from the collection of NFA taxes if they were made or acquired, prior to the publication of this notice, in good faith.

D632A11F-14A7-4B92-AF1A-6C80C6B4264E.gif
 
JBoyette said:
That's the key, a pistol is a pistol. NC CCH rules apply. So you are 100% within the law and your CCH permit to carry the 300blkout in a bag in church, if you think its needed.

That my friends is what freedom is all about. Do as you see fit among the public causing no harm.
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Since the church is private property, you are within your right to carry a concealed SBR if it is done with the permission of the property owner.
 
zuerjoha said:
Apparently only original comments will be considered, so don't bother copy/pasting.
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Well damn it!

That removes 96% of responses.

The other 4% who give a REAL damn, will have to take a hour out of thier day and type a response.

Lol civil war

Yeah right, People are complaining about not being able to copy/paste.
 
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Pink_Vapor said:
@Whoknows please edit your 1st post to include a poll asking who has sent a letter to .guv, and possibly add these links below for folks to more easily find them than digging through 7 pages.

@BigWaylon's link https://oneclickpolitics.global.ssl.fastly.net/messages/edit?promo_id=10271

@rbell2915's letter



Link @JBoyette posted https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...r-classifying-weapons-with-stabilizing-braces

Possibly for you. I have multiple NFA items, I DO NOT want the AR pistol to become one because:
1)- In NC an AR pistol can be carried and kept in a vehicle concealed (unless King Pooper changed that). I got one specifically for that purpose after the TX church shooting. As someone that helps with church safety, an 8" pistol with a folder fits in a laptop bag. Folks aren't afraid of a laptop bag. God forbid if an evil shooter opens up, in a crowd I'd much rather have the accuracy and knock down power of a 300ABLK with a red dot over a G43. The thought of missing the BG and hitting an innocent horrified me.
2)- One's restricted where an NFA can be transported/taken vs. the AR pistol.
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Done. Let me know if it’s what you wanted or not and I’ll adjust.
 
The more I think about this it's raising the question in my mind if this is a carefully calculated first step in grabbing a larger percentage of the semiautomatic firearms than they would otherwise if they had gone straight up Beto on day one.
By scaring people with firearms that are either legally configured as pistols, or readily restorable to legal pistol status into registering them as SBRs they gain a deeper list for use when they outlaw all semiautomatic rifles. They won't get everyone to take the bait, but they will have a longer, perhaps substantially longer list to work from. I don't think that they'll be able to ban pistols. Something to think about.
 
IUHoosier429 said:
I don't think this was posted here yet, but Colion includes some simple, straightforward, and useful tips:

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I watched this one yesterday. Thought it was good. It did give me a little bit of a warm fuzzy that some of mine won’t be an issue (pistol calibers and barrels 6” or less, with 1X red dots). TBD on anything else.
 
rdinatal said:
My take from all this is you (might) have to do one of 3 things:

Register
Dump unapproved braces, keep pistol
Convert to rifle

Right, wrong??

Heck, not sure if once registered you can convert to SBR without another stamp. They might designate a separate category for braced pistols.
Click to expand...
I don't think they can just "create" a new category...I am pretty sure they would have to pass a change to the NFA to add a "braced pistol" category. My understanding is that they are saying all unapproved braces are actually stocks, so you would end up registering a short barrel rifle.
 
Timfoilhat said:
The more I think about this it's raising the question in my mind if this is a carefully calculated first step in grabbing a larger percentage of the semiautomatic firearms than they would otherwise if they had gone straight up Beto on day one.
By scaring people with firearms that are either legally configured as pistols, or readily restorable to legal pistol status into registering them as SBRs they gain a deeper list for use when they outlaw all semiautomatic rifles. They won't get everyone to take the bait, but they will have a longer, perhaps substantially longer list to work from. I don't think that they'll be able to ban pistols. Something to think about.
Click to expand...
I think a new law would have to be passed to ban/grab semi-automatics. Semi automatic firearms are not NFA items unless they fall in the SBR or other categories which are specified by law.
 
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